So, my creation Saxon Security Services have me curious as to how much of what they do is and is not legal, and what practices they may adopt to maximise their legal head room.


Saxon are not a PMC, indeed they are not primarily military at all. They are an arms manufacturer, they are notable more for their respect for and adherence to the law than pushing the limits like ARGENT and the like.

However, when it comes to defending their property, and their people, they consider the law more a guideline. Their main properties in Britain aren't an issue, but they also have research and manufacturing in more unstable parts of the world, prompting them to hire more capable security guards, and arming them.


thats all background stuff.






The issue that I am interested in is the branch now based in America. They have had many attempts from other companies and organisations to access their research including outright attacks from heavily armed individuals. Furthermore, during the Bloodmoon event they were forced to take up military weapons to defend their base of operations (at the time a warehouse in the docks) and from there they moved out to secure a safe area around their part of the docks for other survivors. Since then they have been hiring highly skilled guards, often ex special forces. Whilst they guards carry only weapons the law allows they have armourys with more heavy firepower spread around their premisses.


What I am looking for is the legal limits of what they can carry and what the limits are to their legal right to defend their property from people who may seek to raid them.

Secondly since Bloodmoon their security people have often acted to support Huscarl in his activities as a Hero. What legal actions would they have to make to do this? Would they have to register the men as heroes or as some sort of other organisation? Would they have to maybe get legal recognition as some sort of British Government Agency?

They would use this in order to escape legal repercussions for sending heavily equipped men to support him, but also use it in order to get any extra leeway they can for their standard security issues.





So yeah the first part is largely a legal issue, the second part is much more of a Champions specific legal issue. (hope that came through clearer than i think it did... )

I can't answer in specifics as I'm not a lawyer or anything and the gun laws of the US are pretty convoluted, especially given that each state administers its own laws and its not governed by a central federal law. Most laws deal with pistols as that all that most states allow to private citizens to own and carry. In Michigan, its even illegal to own and use a taser for a private citizen.

As to what they can do on their own property, well, this isn't Shadowrun so corporations do NOT have extraterritoriality and are subject to the laws of the state they are in. Most security forces just carry pistols with maybe shotguns for backup. And generally speaking, security officers would have to be even more careful about discharging firearms than your average police officer, as they aren't legal enforcement types. They are guarding dangerous supplies, so maybe they'd be allowed a bit more high end stuff for those particular warehouses, And if someone comes in guns blazing, lethal force is probably fine but they better be able to prove it or they'll start getting tied up in a lot of court cases, criminal and civil.

Following a hero around with a goon squad with weapons is probably not going to go over well at all. They'd be off their own property and openly carrying anything more than a pistol is going to go over like a lead balloon with the police. Legally speaking there's probably not much they can do to mitigate it either. The registration act for the US is for US citizens really and it doesn't grant you legal enforcement powers, that's a separate process called sanctioning and is tightly controlled. They might be able to get away with a small group getting sanction but that generally involves having a Department of Justice employee being assigned to them and watching everything they do like a hawk, including what the rest of the company is up to. If they became part of the British government, that's probably unlikely as they'd no longer be a business as such and unlike to be allowed to conduct trade in the manner of one. And the US would likely ask them to be removed if they cause to much trouble, not wanting foreign soldiers as such roaming its streets.


All that said, this is a superhero game and emulation of the comics, so the point is to have fun and weirder things have happened, I'm sure, in various comic books out there. And the above is just my opinion of how things stack up.

Heh thanks, that's what I was afraid of...


I guess they will just have to limit the use of their teams to activities against companies working on illegal research and the like so no report will be made to authorities... >.>

Since Huscarl is proving a PR success, they will get a team of people registered in order to act with Huscarl i guess.


Since you brought up the whole US citizenship and registration thing, doesn't that leave a bit of an issue with non US heroes acting on US soil?

Lady Incendiary pretty much nailed it on the head with gun laws. They are determined on a state government level at the moment. A quick Google search turned up this link to a PDF of Michigan's firearm laws.

PDF of Michigan's Gun Laws

Property rights and the right to defend your property with lethal force also vary from state to state, but I suspect you can find something about Michigan's self-defense laws in the same PDF or with a quick Google search.

That said, those are real-life laws and CO is a comic-book universe with different laws. I would just look to ARGENT as an example of what you can get away with. Those folks patrol their M-City compound and several blocks in the city armed to the teeth. Sorry I can't give you any more Champions Universe specific examples.

Very true, and I use Argent as a guideline for Saxon when protecting their own buildings. (Without the hostile looking Cyborgs. )

My main question was really what they can get away with off their property, but I think that's been covered.

Edit: Yeowch, big pdf with lots of legalese... but hey, firearms control doesn't cover Rail and Coil guns... of course, the second a company develops them, especially if they develop man portable ones, it would be amended.

And given this is a comic book type setting, those guns have been developed by various places. And the CO Michigan would cover them. Probably by saying they aren't personal defense weapons at that. I can't imagine a state that doesn't allow the Tazer to be owned and used allowing a Railgun to be either.

On the US registration issue, if the non-US hero is registered at home under whatever laws they have and is only helping out and won't be staying in residence, its unlikely that the US, State, or local law enforcement is going to do anything to them. If they aren't registered at home, it might get sticky, since not only are they vigilantes, they obviously don't respect the law enough to follow it. Still, RP wise, if they don't cause either trouble or massive property damage, they're probably going to be alright. US culture adores superheroes after all. If they want to stay they have to follow all the usual processes for imigration/work permit stuff, which would include registering since they now have a reason to have to follow US law or get deported/imprison/what have you.

Figured as much. Thanks for the help Lady I. always a mine of info when it comes to "legal stuff what make brain hurty"

#2693400 Hinty wrote:

Edit: Yeowch, big pdf with lots of legalese... but hey, firearms control doesn't cover Rail and Coil guns... of course, the second a company develops them, especially if they develop man portable ones, it would be amended.

I wouldn't count on it, the law moves slowly. Were I the CEO of such a company, I would have new products waiting in the wings. When whatever my security team was using got banned I would move to the "next big thing". Besides, who wants to be invaded by people using your own products? Plenty of room for interesting RP that way.

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