In a way this is a continuation of the “Kill or Arrest?” post at, http://www.championsonlineroleplayers.com/forum_threads/275810
Kill or Arrest how top Comic book Heroes answers this question, Think about it? I am including a list to help remind you of different heroes I tried to do Major and Independent labels. Try and answer based on this list, and try to add more heroes, and what would they answer.

Superman | Spider-Man | Batman | Captain America
Ghost Rider | Wonder Woman | Green Lantern | Iron Man
Spawn | Robin | Punisher | Green Lantern
Wolverine | Flash | NightWing | Silver Surfer
Green Arrow | Black Canary | Deadpool | Aquaman
Gambit | Thor | Phoenix | Hulk
Judge Dredd | Asterix | Incredible Hulk | Cal McDonald
Durham Red | The Submariner | Slaine | Captain Marvel
Human Torch | Machine Man | Death's Head | Vampirella
Iceman | Dr. Strange | Rogue | Dick Tracey
Nightcrawler | Beast | Bishop | Swamp Thing
Rorscach | Nick Fury | Doc Samson | Blade
The Thing | Mr. Fantastic | Archangel | Lord Havok
Jonah Hex | The Spirit | She-Hulk | Tank Girl
Spider Jerusalem | Mr. Majestic | Cassie Hack

Key for Ratings of heroes (based on votes) I did Batman and Superman as examples, Superman would never kill and would put a villain in some kind of prison, and even though Batman would say "Arrest" he has done all three, and at least once a year he seems to kill a villain.
Kill Arrest other

Between beatdown and outright kill for my favourite character. Perhaps I should of voted kill infact, Cassie Hack isn't exactly a Hero, and it's a Horror Comic.

Batman has killed a villain??? I don't remember him killing a villian. well Captain nation (the new Cap.) does kill, buuuut if it's monsters,irritades and other non liveable beings. I guess he kills robots too? though they aren't really humans. So... he "destroys" robots.



He might also beat on a thug/hencemen for info. And might get carried away and not realise that he's beating them to death, after all he still is reeling from the death of the original Captain Nation/his former mentor.

Actually, Batman is FAR less willing to kill than Superman.
In current continuity Batman has never WILLINGLY taken a life (unless he knows the person can comeback, ala Ra's Al Ghul [That sucker just won't stay in the ground!] )

In fact, Superman has vocally stated he is willing to kill, but ONLY in the most dire of circumstances (ex: Doomsday, he seemed absolutely unstoppable. Supes was left with no choice but to fight him to the death and the two ended up killing each other in the process.)

You can also see the differences in how they each reacted to the Maxwell Lord incident with Diana. Superman was horrified but didn't just outright disown her from his life, but when she came to Bruce to tell him what had happened his only response to the entire thing was "Get out."

Superman's the one that's willing to kill, in Bat's mind if you take a life you are no better than the people you're putting away.


As for my favorite hero and their stance, my favorite is Wondy, and for her it seems to be "I won't kill unless I absolutely have to, but I'm not going to lose a great deal of sleep over it if I do." She is, after all, a warrior born.

{deleted post} The5Virtues wrote:

Actually, Batman is FAR less willing to kill than Superman.
In current continuity Batman has never WILLINGLY taken a life (unless he knows the person can comeback, ala Ra's Al Ghul [That sucker just won't stay in the ground!] )

In fact, Superman has vocally stated he is willing to kill, but ONLY in the most dire of circumstances (ex: Doomsday, he seemed absolutely unstoppable. Supes was left with no choice but to fight him to the death and the two ended up killing each other in the process.)

You can also see the differences in how they each reacted to the Maxwell Lord incident with Diana. Superman was horrified but didn't just outright disown her from his life, but when she came to Bruce to tell him what had happened his only response to the entire thing was "Get out."

Superman's the one that's willing to kill, in Bat's mind if you take a life you are no better than the people you're putting away.


As for my favorite hero and their stance, my favorite is Wondy, and for her it seems to be "I won't kill unless I absolutely have to, but I'm not going to lose a great deal of sleep over it if I do." She is, after all, a warrior born.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v619/Ratso/batman_cossack.jpg
http://quickstopentertainment.com/comics101/images/2004/jan21/strangling.jpg
http://quickstopentertainment.com/comics101/images/2003/nov26/killing.jpg
http://www.superherostuff.com/blog/images/batman-dead-1b.jpg
http://rikdad.blogspot.com/2009/04/does-batman-kill-his-enemies.html

what you say is true. but Batman has Killed in the past, granted time lines have changed.

as for superman I actually haven't kept up with him since the energy thing which is when I stopped reading DC unless it was a graphic novel done by writers I liked.

Alot of heroes were more violent back in the golden age, even Superman.

Link

Batman doesn't kill. The pictures you've put up are all from previous timelines which are no longer Cannon.

The God Bullet happened recently and is the exception, and didn't really "Kill" DarkSeid.

Superman has killed before, but as said, only when it was absolutetly neccessary. He killed three Kryptonion criminals from the Phantom Zone who had already destroyed an alternate Earth. His reasons were he had no other Choice.

Captain America has killed as well, but once again, he does this when he has very little choice.

Green Arrow, my own favorite personal Hero, doesn't Kill either. However, he is particularly brutal.

Spiderman would never Kill either, he's had a heart attack damn near every time he's thought he's killed someone.

Ghost Rider as presented in normal cannon and not the lame ass Marvel "Knights" title which came out years ago, is not a Killer Either. The Pennance stare is his weapon.

Wonder Woman is willing to kill in extreme circumstances, she is a Warrior born and if she could, she'd probably off the Joker.

Iron Man doesn't kill if he can afford not to, but he's taken life, he flies around in a living weapons system.

Spawn kills left and right. He's a 90's character, it was one of his claims to fame.

Robin doesn't Kill, unless it's Jason Todd, and everyone hated him, and the Joker killed him, then he came back to life.

Punisher kills left and right.

The Green Lanterns do not kill. It is against their code as space policemen.

Wolverine kills, mainly Hand Ninjas and Hydra soldiers more then anything else, most other enemys he just maims horribly.

The Flash is willing to Kill in extreme circumstances, much like Superman, when there is simply no other choice. Barry Allen Flash killed Dr.Zoom to save his wifes life.

NightWing does not kill, like batman, period.

Silver Surfer does not kill, though he's responsible for many deaths during his Herald Days.

Black Canary, is willing to kill, unlike her Husband, but only again in extreme circumstances.

Deadpool kills left and right, but he is not a Hero, he is a Mercenary and sometimes Villain.

Aquaman is willing to Kill, but once again not to the lengths Spawn is. More along the lines WonderWoman does.

Gambit is willing to Kill, but more along the lines that Wolverine does.

Thor doesn't kill people. He only Kills Monsters.

Phonix, Jean Grey doesn't kill people when she's in her right mindset.

The Hulk is a living natural disaster and has killed many people.

The Submariner has about the same Death Rate as AquaMan does.

Captain Marvel never kills, ever.

The Human Torch never kills.

Machine Man doesn't kill (And Next Wave was so NOT cannon no matter how entertaining it was)

Vampirella kills.

Iceman doesn't kill.

Dr.Strange doesn't kill Humans.

Rogue doesn't kill.

Dick tracey is not a Superhero.

Night Crawler doesn't kill.

The Beast Doesn't Kill.

Bishop is willing to Kill, but on the same level Wolverine does. I.E. not at the scale Spawn does, but alittle more then WonderWoman does.

Swamp Thing is a Vertigo Character and will Kill.

Rorsach is a Psycho who kills.

Nick Fury is willing to kill.

Doc Samson was a Pulp character and killed people left and right if they were baddies.

Original Comic Blade only Kills Vampires.

The Thing like all of the Fantastic Four doesn't kill except for when it Comes to DOOM.

ArchAngel was willing to kill, but he doesn't as Angel anymore.

Jonah Hex is a cowboy not a Superhero and he will shoot you, but also brings folks in alive as well.

She-Hulk has shown she's willing to Kill on the same level as WonderWoman does.

Tank Girl is not a Superhero or anything vaugely close to one.

Spider Jerusalem is awesome but does not belong in this category.

Mr.Majestic is willing to kill, but has been trying to learn how to be more leniant depending on which time line you read.


Basically it comes down to this.

The Vast Majority of DC and Marvel characters don't Kill, and those that do, only do in extreme circumstances.. Champions tends to follow this Model.

The more "Edgy" independant labels that sprouted up in the 90s had charcters more willing to kill. For awhile this was seen as more "Mature" but has kinda started to fade back into the whole "Eh it's also kinda immature when a guy runs around exploding heads all day" category. These days the best comics tend to fall into the middle.. Characters like Spiderman and Batman who will not Kill under any circumstances... and characters like Cap who will if they don't feel they have other options.

RunRiot pretty much nailed... Everything on the head.

My favorite heroes over the years, primarily Spider-Man and the X-Men have always gone out of their way not to kill, even when to do otherwise might make their lives (or humanity's) easier.

In some ways, it's a moot point. It's comics logic. If some being is a big enough threat to justify killing, he won't stay dead for long. Hell, even Norman Osborne couldn't stay dead.

Batman doesn't kill. The pictures you've put up are all from previous timelines which are no longer Cannon.

Cannon Now doesn't change that it was something that did happen, and reset buttons are an easy way out. it would have been better to find a way to Live with the darker past then to say NANANA never happend


Ghost Rider as presented in normal cannon and not the lame ass Marvel "Knights" title which came out years ago, is not a Killer Either. The Pennance stare is his weapon.

once again it would have been better to work out the issue then to say it didn't happen

Spawn kills left and right. He's a 90's character, it was one of his claims to fame.

You say it like the 90's where bad, I disagree whole heatedly the comic industry was finally free of the comic code, and the many of the writers from the era of the code where letting new blood in, and where ready to try new ground, yes they had some awful stuff but some of the best comic books came out in the late eighties and early nineties.

Punisher kills left and right.

in my top five favorite Heroes.


Wolverine kills, mainly Hand Ninjas and Hydra soldiers more then anything else, most other enemys he just maims horribly.


Also in my top 5

Deadpool kills left and right, but he is not a Hero, he is a Mercenary and sometimes Villain.

I only added him to my list because of his current popularity I will always see him as a villain 1st.

The Hulk is a living natural disaster and has killed many people.

Hulk is not in my top 5 but if the Arc is well written they are always a pleasure to read.

Dick tracey is not a Superhero.

and in this I have to point out Not All Comic Heroes ARE Super Powered

Swamp Thing is a Vertigo Character and will Kill.

Love many of the Vertigo titles

Doc Samson was a Pulp character and killed people left and right if they were baddies.

And he still counts

Jonah Hex is a cowboy not a Superhero and he will shoot you, but also brings folks in alive as well.

Still counts

Tank Girl is not a Superhero or anything vaugely close to one.

She is a Comic Book Hero, just not a Super Hero, and since we can roll up Any type of Comic Book Hero, from Marvel/Disney, DC/time Warner, Manga/Anime, to puple fiction titles, and preteen comic's we have to look at them all in some respect. And on a side Note, I used to emulate Jet in my fashion statement of the early nineties.

Spider Jerusalem is awesome but does not belong in this category.

Very Much so Since you can make a character look almost like him, with as many guns to boot.

Mr.Majestic is willing to kill, but has been trying to learn how to be more leniant depending on which time line you read.

I love the line Superman tells him "by the way, the french airforce wants its planes back"


The Vast Majority of DC and Marvel characters don't Kill, and those that do, only do in extreme circumstances.. Champions tends to follow this Model.

But we are not limited to this.

The more "Edgy" independant labels that sprouted up in the 90s had charcters more willing to kill. For awhile this was seen as more "Mature" but has kinda started to fade back into the whole "Eh it's also kinda immature when a guy runs around exploding heads all day" category. These days the best comics tend to fall into the middle.. Characters like Spiderman and Batman who will not Kill under any circumstances... and characters like Cap who will if they don't feel they have other options.

I personally loved these comics but then I had moved out of my habit of reading girly comic books, and teen drama titles in the Late Eighties, that is when I read my high school Sweetheart's X-Men Comics.

Still violence happens and different people deal with it in different ways.

Do characters in the Star Wars EU count as comic book characters, as most of them appear only in comics?

If so, those guys kill left and right. Especially the Jedi.

This is not a game about comic books. If it were, concepts like Popeye and the Archies would have to be as viable to play in game as Superman and Batman. This is a game about super heroes.

Theres some leeway for what defines a superhero, but I think the easiest way to put it is in the words. Super and hero.

A hero is someone who does the right thing, a protagonist, someone who goes above and beyond to make the world a better place, even if in a very small way.

A super hero is someone who takes it further. This may be because they have powers, it may be because they have more drive, but they take it to another level. Batman has no powers, but he's a superhero because his morals push him further than what a normal person would go.

Powers and costumes help, but it's following a greater morality that makes a superhero, which is why many take the high road and don't kill.

Dick Tracy is a detective- he doesn't go above and beyond.

Doc Savage is a pulp hero. He's the proto-superhero in many ways, and while he killed left and right, he also solved many a problem with a good right hook. A lot of Golden Age shot people too, but this was the developmental time for superheroes- the idea was still evolving.

I'd liken saying the first few issues of Batman counting to saying that the story of the Trojan horse was good sci-fi.

{deleted post} Mortal_Man wrote:

This is not a game about comic books. If it were, concepts like Popeye and the Archies would have to be as viable to play in game as Superman and Batman. This is a game about super heroes.

Theres some leeway for what defines a superhero, but I think the easiest way to put it is in the words. Super and hero.

A hero is someone who does the right thing, a protagonist, someone who goes above and beyond to make the world a better place, even if in a very small way.

A super hero is someone who takes it further. This may be because they have powers, it may be because they have more drive, but they take it to another level. Batman has no powers, but he's a superhero because his morals push him further than what a normal person would go.

Powers and costumes help, but it's following a greater morality that makes a superhero, which is why many take the high road and don't kill.

Dick Tracy is a detective- he doesn't go above and beyond.

Doc Savage is a pulp hero. He's the proto-superhero in many ways, and while he killed left and right, he also solved many a problem with a good right hook. A lot of Golden Age shot people too, but this was the developmental time for superheroes- the idea was still evolving.

I'd liken saying the first few issues of Batman counting to saying that the story of the Trojan horse was good sci-fi.

If that was the case look at the picture and think again because I have seen Street Sharks and Mecha in CO


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v119/gothicshark/Co/beafraid.jpg

The jedi in th star wars comics really should count as heros not only do they have powers that most others dont they follow a code that has put them at odds with their own governments time and again .They do seem to maim and kill alot tho

{deleted post} Farahl wrote:

Do characters in the Star Wars EU count as comic book characters, as most of them appear only in comics?

If so, those guys kill left and right. Especially the Jedi.

as much as I would not like to encourage Jedi's.

1. you can make one very easy in CO.
2. the comics go back to the late 70's
3. its not as bad as making Popeye, which I did to make a point.

so make a Jedi, but when you RP one please find a way to make it original, and fit somehow in the lore of the Champions Universe, which is not to hard if you use your head.

I can make me in the Character Creator, that doesnt mean this game is Second Life. Also, i can make a WoW Orc Warrior here, but this isnt WoW now, is it?

Also, Doc Savage isnt the proto-superhero, Phantom is.

More on topic now.

This is a superhero MMORPG. Not a comic MMORPG. Going the traditional way (and i state, characters that kill are on my top 5 too, especially Punisher which I adore), super heroes DO NOT kill. Some of them have, in some stories, some cannon, some not so cannon, but still most super heroes do not kill. Medieval heroes kill, mythology heroes kill, manga heroes kill, super heroes do not. Its the main trend.

Also, keep in mind that this is Champions. Its not Marvel, its not DC. There isnt a single killer hero in the Champions lore (except Drifter, but he doesnt really count) as far as I am aware. If im wrong and a hero of the Champions universe kills (not an antihero of the Dark Champions Hundson City which is a different thing, i mean mainstream cannon Champions).

As thus, I am against "heroes" who kill in this setting. Its out of setting which equals out of character for me. When and IF Dark Champions comes out, ill be the first to make a killing vigilante who goes guns-blazing in the Viper base and rapes their unborn children. Untill then, this is the Champions Universe and since we are RPers we should act towards the setting as much as possible.

Also. Punisher is one guy, all the other killing vigilantes are BORIIIING. Its like having Punisher with different face and clothes trying to act like him. The '90s are over, get over it people, vigilantes are Punisher copycats in the modern times.

Ill stick with the Champions setting since this is the game we play, thank you very much, untill we have our vigilante setting (Dark Champions). Also, talking DC-Marvel-wise on the matter, nobody could make a better post than RunRiot.

Need to point out that the Green Lanterns do now kill, the no-kill rule was revoked, during the Sinestro war I think.

A strict, 100% code against killing has always kind of bothered me.

Sure if you're bullet proof there's no reason for you to cook a purse-snatcher with your eyebeams.

But when you've got some crazy bugger who keeps doing things like dropping nerve gas on crowded streets, and no prison seems to be able to hold him for long, and you know damn well he's not going to reform, and you show off your moral high-ground by sparing his life, all you're really doing is saying that hundreds of innocent people have to die so this guy can keep on living.

It's allowing a massacre to happen so you can go on feeling righteous.

It's selfish and not-at-all heroic.

I've always had more admiration for characters who really understand that there are consequences to their actions.

{deleted post} RunRiot wrote:

Machine Man doesn't kill (And Next Wave was so NOT cannon no matter how entertaining it was)

Except that it has started to seep in other books. For example, Machine Man showing up in Ms. Marvel's book. Nextwave is as canon as it is required - Machine Man's newest interpretation is legit. The rest? Not yet, likely never.

{deleted post} Dieneces66 wrote:

I can make me in the Character Creator, that doesnt mean this game is Second Life. Also, i can make a WoW Orc Warrior here, but this isnt WoW now, is it?

Also, Doc Savage isnt the proto-superhero, Phantom is.

More on topic now.

This is a superhero MMORPG. Not a comic MMORPG.

I hate to quote Websters

Main Entry: su·per·hero
Pronunciation: \-ˌhir-(ˌ)ō, -ˌhē-(ˌ)rō\
Function: noun
Date: 1917

: a fictional hero having extraordinary or superhuman powers; also : an exceptionally skillful or successful person

notice no mention of moral code, looks, or origins

My point is simple By the basic Definition Achilles would be in the list of first super heroes, and if you wanted you could make him

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v119/gothicshark/Co/Costume_Mariel_Martog__CC_Comic_-3.jpg

in fact if we where limited to "Classical Comic Book Heroes" then everyone would look like
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v119/gothicshark/Co/Costume_Mariel_Martog_catsmeow_CC_C.jpg

but as I have pointed out we are not limited any one Idea or genre

SPANC
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v119/gothicshark/Co/Costume_Mariel_Martog_Bhump_Cc_C-2.jpg

Angel
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v119/gothicshark/Co/Costume_Mariel_Martog_FeatherlyWing.jpg

WOW
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v119/gothicshark/Co/Costume_Mariel_Martog__CC_Comic_-1.jpg

Creeepy silly
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v119/gothicshark/Co/Costume_Mariel_Martog_UberGoth_CC_C.jpg

demon
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v119/gothicshark/Co/Costume_Mariel_Martog_Marchosias-1.jpg

Alien
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v119/gothicshark/Co/Costume_Mariel_Martog_Irken_CC_C-4.jpg

Anime Mecha
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v119/gothicshark/Co/Costume_Mariel_Martog_Irken_CC_C-5.jpg

Space Marine
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v119/gothicshark/Co/Costume_Mariel_Martog_Tiburon_CC_Co.jpg

If the game designers wanted us just to be silver age heroes then they wouldn't have made it possible to have these kinds of options...

Personally, I am open to all kinds of Ideas, and role play ideas, I don't like RP with a mass murderer but a super soldier who is tormented over having to kill in war would be ok... and we can do it all.
---

However, this is a follow up thread, for talking about the published comics out there and getting a feel for which would kill, and which wouldn't.

and so far the big guys don't kill anymore with the resets but did in the golden age, and the vigilantes kill but these days "nerds" are "hippy pacifists" and don't like violent comics.

*** use of "Nerd" isn't meant as an insult since I am one, the use of "Hippy Pacifists" is meant as an Insult since "Hippies" are Shiny, dirty, smelly people who smoke pot***

{deleted post} RunRiot wrote:

Batman doesn't kill. The pictures you've put up are all from previous timelines which are no longer Cannon.

The God Bullet happened recently and is the exception, and didn't really "Kill" DarkSeid.

It's also of questionable continuity. Much of Final Crisis has been quietly dropped (most notably, evacuation of Earth), and while Batman's disappearance/death isn't one so far, it's hard to say for certain until we see how Bruce returns.

Green Arrow, my own favorite personal Hero, doesn't Kill either. However, he is particularly brutal.

Did Longbow Hunters get retconned? I know he's lightened up since then, but he most definitely killed in that storyline.

Wonder Woman is willing to kill in extreme circumstances, she is a Warrior born and if she could, she'd probably off the Joker.

It's also notable that she was cleared of murder in her trial, and was outright declared to have had no choice. While Supes and Bats may have had means to deal with Max Lord in comparable situations, Max removed both from Wonder Woman's support at the time: Supes was under Max's control, and Bats was comatose. Wonder Woman's options were singularly limited at the time, and at best risked the loss of Superman.

Spawn kills left and right. He's a 90's character, it was one of his claims to fame.

Punisher kills left and right.

Both these characters are pointedly not heroes, though. At best, they're anti-heroes, and Punisher was intended to be a villain.

The Green Lanterns do not kill. It is against their code as space policemen.

The Green Lanterns have recently been cleared to kill, but not indiscriminately (one was kicked out of the corps for killing a murderer who'd surrendered and was in custody). Essentially, this is limited to the Sinestro Corps and the "enemies" of the Corps, but it's clear that this is still the exception, not the rule.

The Flash is willing to Kill in extreme circumstances, much like Superman, when there is simply no other choice. Barry Allen Flash killed Dr.Zoom to save his wifes life.

Notably, Barry Allen follows the policeman's code on this. Wally presumably does as well, but hasn't been in the position where he needed to kill.

NightWing does not kill, like batman, period.

A severely traumatized Nightwing did not interfere in the murder of an enemy in his presence. To put this in a proper context, the killer responsible proceeded to have "non-consensual" sex with him (Devin Grayson, the writer, draws the line at calling it rape, hence the quote: her terms).

Black Canary, is willing to kill, unlike her Husband, but only again in extreme circumstances.

Again in context: Black Canary has repeatedly chosen not to kill Chesire, who has threatened painful, lingering death upon Canary's adoptive family on no few occasions.

Aquaman is willing to Kill, but once again not to the lengths Spawn is. More along the lines WonderWoman does.

Aquaman's also gone through repeated periods where he's outright stated he's not to be considered a hero, but a head of state.

Captain Marvel never kills, ever.

Presumably the DC, Billy Batson Captain Marvel. This isn't true in elseworlds stories (Kingdom Come most visibly), but the character's often used to show the absolute qualities of heroism and altruism in the DCU, even over Superman.

Swamp Thing is a Vertigo Character and will Kill.

Similarly to the above, however, Swamp Thing's generally killed only in times of extreme mental duress (such as when he discovered his true nature -- after being shot in the head), or when dealing with mass murderers. Swamp Thing is also repeatedly referred to as a god, and often doesn't feel bound by human law.

Rorsach is a Psycho who kills.

Pointedly, Rorschach's insanity is such that he has almost no understanding of people beyond the two categories of "scum" and "righteous". He needs a reason to kill, sure, but Rorschach's so far gone that he hasn't washed his coat in over a decade (compare the bloodstains between his "birth" and his post-prison appearance).

Mr.Majestic is willing to kill, but has been trying to learn how to be more leniant depending on which time line you read.

He is also pointedly a parallel of Superman these days, and is partly intended as commentary on Supes.

The Vast Majority of DC and Marvel characters don't Kill, and those that do, only do in extreme circumstances.. Champions tends to follow this Model.

Dark Champions is pointedly an exception.

The more "Edgy" independant labels that sprouted up in the 90s had charcters more willing to kill. For awhile this was seen as more "Mature" but has kinda started to fade back into the whole "Eh it's also kinda immature when a guy runs around exploding heads all day" category. These days the best comics tend to fall into the middle.. Characters like Spiderman and Batman who will not Kill under any circumstances... and characters like Cap who will if they don't feel they have other options.

It's also important to remember that in the circumstances where many of these characters have killed, it's either led to extreme guilt on their part, or else massive fallout (Wonder Woman's still dealing with the death of Max Lord nearly five years later, and isn't showing signs of losing the consequences for it anytime soon).

Edit: Pointedly. Apparently I didn't say that enough. >_>